Meyer's Rose

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Krist
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Club: Hallebardiers - Sint Michielsgilde
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Meyer's Rose

Post by Krist » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:22 pm

To kick off our forum, kindly provided by Roger, I would like to invite everyone to delve a little bit deeper into Meyer’s Rose. More then once he mentions the enigmatic Rose in his longsword, dusack and rappier section.

The rose has me puzzled since I first saw the interpretation of Jeff Tsay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJaQsxr3yqg

Also Keith p Myers has his interpretation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC0ufU28gAc

Although great interpretations I believe there’s more to the rose. Therefore I’m posting all the longsword techniques where the Rose is mentioned and invite everyone to interpret, discuss them and record your findings. If I find a volunteer during our next training sessions I wil record and post my interpretations.



mittelhut stucke

1.40v.1
And note when an opponent comes before you who holds his sword extended before him in the longpoint, or els in straight parrying, then send your blade in a circle around from the middle guard right around his blade, so that your blade comes almost back to your initial middle guard; from there swing the foible powerfully from outside over his arms at his head

1.40v.2
Or when you have thus gone around his blade with the Rose, if he meanwhile should fall in down from above to your opening, then take his blade out with the short edge, that is when you have come for the second time in the Middle Guard; for he will not come so quickly as if by surprise to your opening, but that you will meanwhile come around with the Rose, such that you will come to take him out in plenty of time. And after you have thus taken him out, then let your weapon run around in the air over your head (in order to deceive him), looping for a Circle to the next opening, etc.

1.40v.3
Or in the Onset when you have cut into the Middle Guard on your left, and meanwhile your opponent cuts at you from above, then step well out from his cut toward his right side, and cast your short edge over or outside his right arm at his head; and as you cast in, let your blade shoot well in, either at his head or over his arms. Afterwards pull your sword quickly back up, and cut from your left with the long edge strongly upward at his right arm. From there, attack him further as you will, with such techniques as you will find above or below in this treatise.


langenort stucke

1.41v.1
In the Onset, bind on your opponent's sword with the High Cut, and as soon as he goes back up again from your sword, then cut at his chin from below between his arms while they are going up. Concerning this device see the two small figures on the upper left in Image I.

The guys Meyer refers to :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p44qb6jvt359tpr/rose%201..JPG

1.41r.2
Item, bind him as before, and as soon as the swords connect in the bind, then break through below with the Rose between you and him, and cast the short edge in at his head on the other side.

1.41r.3
Or after you have broken through below from the bind with the Rose, then wrench his sword sideways from the other side with the short edge, so that your hands cross over one another in the air; strike deep with the short edge over at his head.

1.41r.4
Item, bind against his incoming cut, and as soon as the blades connect, push your pommel through under your right arm, stepping at the same time well out toward his left side; and go up with crossed hands, and cut with the long edge through the Rose sideways from below behind his arm at his head.

1.41r.5
Item, when you bind your opponent, then release your left hand from the pommel, and use it to grip his blade to yours in the bind, and do it quickly; then go through below with your right hand and the haft, and strike up toward your right, as you can see in the two small figures on the right in Image H; thus you take his sword away from him.

The guys Meyer refers to :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncplkhn2vtba5 ... 20rose.JPG

1.42r.1
Item, if your opponent binds you with extended sword on yours, then note when the binds connect together, and quickly change through below, and flick the little flat of the foible at his ear from the other side. From this changing through you will learn to do many fine devices, if you diligently study it.

1.42r.2
Item, when you see that your opponent will bind or cut at you, then send your sword in against him, as if you also intended to bind, and just when the blades are about to connect, push your pommel up quickly, and turn your blade up from below through the Rose, catching his stroke on your long edge, as is shown in the small scene on the right in Image N. After you have thus caught his cut, you can finish this device in two ways.
Firstly thus: when the swords have connected, then go right through below with your blade, and wrench his blade toward your right, and let your hands snap around in the air again, or cross over one another, and cut with the short edge strongly at his head. This is a masterful going through that will not fail you, if he should cut from above.
For the second, when you have caught his sword, then as the swords clash together, step well to his
left side, and cut back with the long edge from outside over his left arm at his head. This last cut proceeds unexpectedly, very swiftly, surely, and strongly.

Meyer refers to these guys :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8ml4h90ouxb8 ... 20bind.JPG

Have fun
Krist

(English translation Meyer's techniques are from dr. Forgengs translation)
Ars longa, vita brevis
User avatar
Krist
Is on speaking terms
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Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:29 pm
Club: Hallebardiers - Sint Michielsgilde
Weapons: Longsword (Meyer), Dusack, Rapier

Re: Meyer's Rose

Post by Krist » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:47 pm

Principles that come to my mind when studying the Rose :

The Rose is a circular motion :
From 1.40v.1 : “then send your blade in a circle around from the middle guard right around his blade, so that your blade comes almost back to your initial middle guard”

The Rose is a small, short, quick action, it takes only a small tempo :
After taking out the blade with the Rose Meyer tell’s us we will be quicker then our opponent.

From 1.40v.2“Or when you have thus gone around his blade with the Rose, if he meanwhile should fall in down from above to your opening, then take his blade out with the short edge, that is when you have come for the second time in the Middle Guard; for he will not come so quickly as if by surprise to your opening, but that you will meanwhile come around with the Rose, such that you will come to take him out in plenty of time.

Although at first it doesn’t seem like a Rose technique I’m of the opionion that Meyers teaches us a very basic Rose action in the first stuck from the Langenort. Again this must be a short tempo action. Going through Meyer's cross would take to long. Here the turning rose action is much quicker.

from 1.41v.1 : “bind on your opponent's sword with the High Cut, and as soon as he goes back up again from your sword, then cut at his chin from below between his arms while they are going up. Concerning this device see the two small figures on the upper left in Image I.”

The end result : https://www.dropbox.com/s/p44qb6jvt359tpr/rose%201..JPG

He repeats this stuck in 1.41r2 where he does the same action from a bind.

The Rose is an alternative way to go from one opening to the other one. It doesn’t go through Meyers Cross.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xis254vmk1yas ... iagram.jpg

The Rose is a versatile action

1.41r.5 may seems to be a technique that doesn’t fit between the Rose techniques. But could Meyer be teaching us a Rose technique not with the point but with the pommel ?

from 1.41r.5 Item, when you bind your opponent, then release your left hand from the pommel, and use it to grip his blade to yours in the bind, and do it quickly; then go through below with your right hand and the haft, and strike up toward your right, as you can see in the two small figures on the right in Image H; thus you take his sword away from him.

The guys Meyer refers to :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ncplkhn2vtba5 ... 20rose.JPG
Ars longa, vita brevis
User avatar
Krist
Is on speaking terms
Is on speaking terms
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:29 pm
Club: Hallebardiers - Sint Michielsgilde
Weapons: Longsword (Meyer), Dusack, Rapier

Re: Meyer's Rose

Post by Krist » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:14 pm

Possible link to the older masters

Maybe speculative but why not.

Ringeck :
Meyer must have had acces to the so called Ringeck manuscript. Das Redel has some Rosesque aspects :

"Das haist das redel
Item, wann du mitt ainem vechtest, so streck din arm lanck von dir - vnnd daß din dawm oben blyb vff dem schwert - vnd wend das schwert vor dir mitt dem ort vmb glych als ain rad von vnden vff dien lincken sytten behentlich; vnd gang domitt zu° dem mann. Vnd daruß so magstu durchwechslen vff welche sytten du wilt oder anbinden. Vnnd wenn du angebunden haust, so magstu tryben, waß stuck du wilt - daß dich am besten tunckt - alß vor."

Tobler translation :
"This is called the Wheel
Item, when you fight with one, then extend your arms long from you and in such a way that your thumb remain above the sword, and turn your sword before you with the point around directly like a wheel from below to your left side nimbly and walk thereby to your opponent. And from this you can change through to whichever site you wish or bind. And when have bound, then you can use whatever technique you wish - whichever you think is best - as before."

Just like Der Pfobenczagel from the so called Dobringer manuscript

"Eyn gefechte heisset der pfobenczagel /und kumpt aus dem orte / und get mit dem orte um eyns swert / aber su[e]st eyme vor dem ogen zam eyn rat / ader czirkel / gleich um / so lange bis das her siet wo hern gehaben mag“

Lindholm translation
"One technique is called the Peacock’s tail [Pfobenczagel] and it comes from the point and it goes with the point around the opponent’s sword or in front of the eyes in a circle or like a wheel [rat / ader czirkel], straight in front until you see where you can attack and defeat the opponent.”
Ars longa, vita brevis
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