Hroarr - Vier Leger

Quotes from the ARMA discussion:
And to be clear, it is basically the vorschlag from the guard Vom Tag in Zufechten we are speaking of. The nachschlag usually comes from outstretched arms in Langenort/Hengen, in or out of a bind, or from Alber. Not commonly from the shoulder. That is an important aspect to note with the Low Vom Tag. And this also relates to constant movement and leger. It is good to keep moving to keep the pressure and the Vor. But, the huts are also places that protect you. If you are in between huts, you are not as well protected and may be attacked in nachreissen. Thus the importance of Langenort of which everything revolves according to the masters.

Regarding the actual resting on the shoulder, this whole question revolves around how long you rest. It is called a "leger" for a reason. The word actually means a provisory, temporary place to rest while travelling. How long you stay there can depend on several reasons. Constant moving between huts will confuse your opponent but will also leave you exposed when in between guards if you are not attacking with intent and just moving for the sake of moving. It is an excellent opportunity for your opponent to move in in nachreissen, as mentioned above.

This does not mean you should stand still. On the contrary, keep moving your feet to find a good distance and angle for defense and offense and change guards at the "safe" distance of Zufechten. In krieg however, you keep moving by constantly attacking with cuts and thrusts to maintain the Vor. This is not quite the same as continuous movement in zufechten.

Also, leaving an opening by waiting in a guard can lure your opponent into attacking that opening so you can attack them in nachreissen with a counterstrike or thrust. Against some opponents that might be the better option, provided you now how they fence. "One trick-hand snipers", for instance.

Finally, regarding what cuts are designed for countering forceful zornhaus, I said SCHIEL hau not scheitelhau. The more force your opponent uses with the zorn, the more exposed he will be, especially if he goes with both hands to alber, as long as you time your bind correctly on his weak. A zwerchhau works just the same and is a very similar cut, although at an opposite angle and with a "bind" closer to the strong. Even a zornhau can be done similarly.

This is essential and just a simple continuation of the Winden principles. Pretty much all counterstrike meisterhaus are winding cuts at the least, and if the bind is closer to your weak will knock the opponent's sword forcefully aside (although most master appear to seek the bind) or if it is closer to your strong will displace it for a direct strike or thrust. They manipulate force by working the weak and strong with timing, footwork and angles. Power is a minor part in this calculation, since leverage, timing and speed are more important. Therefore it is not the most powerful zornhau that wins. It is the one with the best angle, timing and bind.

Some more quotes:
If you can't displace a powerful zornhau with the Vier Versetzen from Low Vom Tag (no matter if it is resting on the shoulder or not) then I would suggest that something is wrong. A Schielhau and a Zwerchhau does this quite well, as does a Zornhau if you move your feet, arms and body right and time your bind correctly. It all depends on if you bind with your weak or strong against his weak or strong. If anything, resting on the shoulder kan make the Zornhau even more powerful than both other variants, since the point often is aimed somewhat to the back, giving the point more distance to travel.

But again, with regards to power, all this comes down to just that: handling the weak and strong which Hs.3227a and many other manuscripts quite explicitly emphasizes, even stating that the whole Art lies in manipulating these.

".. Weak against strong, hard against soft and vice versa . Because when it is strong against strong, the stronger one will always win. That is why Liechtenauer�s swordsmanship is a true art that the weaker wins more easily by use of his art than the stronger by using his strength. Otherwise what use would the art be?"

As for a quote regarding Schielhau breaking a zornhau, Ringeck, Goliath, Gladiatoria and other manuscripts advise that the Schiel counters oberhaus and thrusts especially from puffels that rely mostly on force. Just try it. It works, just as it does against langenort and pflug. Here it is from Hs3227a again.

"And this strike breaks what the buffalo [a peasant that is] can strike from above to below, as they are wont to do. Just as the cross strike [Twerhaw] breaks the same, as is described before"

It can even be transformed into a Mutieren against Ochs or Kron, if you time it right and let the point pass to the outside.

Constant motion relates strongly to distance. I'll borrow your Hs.3227a-quote Jorge:

"But before all things, remember that you should not remain too long in one guard."

This actually says you CAN remain in guard. Just not too long...

So, looking at distance; In Zufechten you should constantly move to seek openings. Changing guards frequently in Zufechten IS good since it will confuse your opponent, But you don't need to move like a rabbit on crack... More important is to move around your opponent and try to find a blossen, something which happens, for instance, when he is changing guards, has struck past you, has attacked out of range, or moves back into a guard after an attack. That's when you attack in nachreissen. Of course there are blossen in any guard that your opponent stands in, but with any training he is aware of them and prepared to defend them. That is why Nachreissen can be more effective and also why the Nachschlag is so important.

After the Vorschlag you should keep moving to maintain the Vor. Then we are not speaking of solely primary guards any more. Instead you are using a combination of strikes, thrusts and secondary guards. The primary guards Vom Tag and Alber are not as useful here, except as the outer corners of your cutting arcs. Ochs and Pflug are a little different though. This is, in my opinion, why Liechtenauer, according to Hs.3227a, does not put much emphasis on the Huten. They are not as important when you have the Vor and are attacking. Also, they are not as important while defending. The are mainly useful in Zufechten before the attack or after, when you have withdrawn into Zufechten again.

All connects to taking the Vor. Moving in Zufechten and in Krieg are two quite different things. But as taking the Vor is what you are strongly advised to do, you do not stay in Zufechten for long. However, in practicality we all wait a little to see how the opponent moves and acts. Most manuscripts also advise you to move in and out of zufechten, since krieg is too dangerous.

"...guards or postures are a graceful but also necessary positioning and comportment of the whole body with the sword, in which the combatant places and positions himself when he is the first to come to his opponent in the place of encounter" - Joachim Meyer, regarding guards and "Onset" (Zufechten).

Regarding how we cut a zornhau from the shoulder. No cuts pass through Kron. The leading hand moves in a straight line from the shoulder to its final position, just as my friend showed in the clip on Verborgene Haw. The real difference in making a cut comes from the pommel work. That is what defines the execution of the meisterhaus.

The point moves the shortest possible way, as if tied with a string to its target, just as the masters advise. Wide cuts are clearly advised against, so staying close to langenort and then moving to pflug is "better" than cutting straight to Alber. Atleast in the early manuscripts. Meyer is a different thing though.

"...in this righteous fencing do not make wide or ungainly parries or fence in large movements by which people restrict themselves." -Hs.3227a

But, what I think you are after, and what I tried to clarify earlier, is that the nachschlag does not come from Vom Tag normally. Instead it commonly comes from outstretched arms with something that is more similar to Langenort or at shorter distance, yes from Kron, in other words from the bind. And, only if he presses strongly, that is. Otherwise you would just thrust, sometimes while winding, or duplieren or any other suitable technique for Krieg.

As for quotes, I have quoted source material. Look again at the links I provided earlier. German "An" can mean "at, "close to", "against" or even "beside". There is no way to know for sure. Stating that they never rested the sword against the shoulder is jumping to conclusions on no proper basis but your own experimentation. And again, the Danzig image certainly looks suspicious. And people seem to be able to make it work quite well. I know people who do lightning fast zornhaus from shoulder resting VT. So fast that I couldn't even see the cuts coming. Of course I was standing too close...

Finally, some short sparring clips of friends that sometimes rest their swords on their shoulders in Vom Tag. And they seem to manage quite well... Standing still is not quite what characterizes them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv8HyBo_SF0

http://www.youtube.com/user/marozzo#p/u/3/TuyKqzYMrZg